Yet another example of our failed justice system

170
Found 2nd JanEdited by:"philphil61"
In 1981, he killed his wife after an argument. He hit her with a vase before pushing her off the balcony of their ninth-floor flat. He was convicted in November 1981

After his release he killed his partner in 1992 strangling her with a belt at their home. He was convicted in 1993. So he served less than 10 years

But they let him walk free in 1995 << that's two years served for his second murder.

And yes he did it again.... he attacked his girlfriend with a claw hammer and then strangling her with a cord in December 2016

Those in power/authority and those who gave him permission to be released (anyone who agreed to his release (psychiatrists/medical professionals/prison officers/Ministry of Justice/Home Office etc)) after the second offence IMHO need to be held accountable for the last murder. They should be jailed for willfully or negligently assisting a murderer and the sentence should be 5 full years without the possibility of early release/parole.


bbc.co.uk/new…995
theguardian.com/uk-…son
manchestereveningnews.co.uk/new…456


Scum like this don't deserve oxygen never mind prison but we've got rid of the death penalty and this is a prime example of why it should be brought back

And the system and those in authority need to be held accountable
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No Phil
never bring back the death penalty

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind

It can never ever be reversed

Is a slippery slope to loading people into cattle trucks

and if you must the legal costs will out way any savings.


did I miss anything ?

and all of this against your what your hate ? revenge ?
Edited by: "Wongy110" 2nd Jan
Original Poster
Wongy11016 m ago

No Phil never bring back the death penalty An eye for an eye makes the …No Phil never bring back the death penalty An eye for an eye makes the whole world blindIt can never ever be reversedIs a slippery slope to loading people into cattle trucksand if you must the legal costs will out way any savings.did I miss anything ?and all of this against your what your hate ? revenge ?


And how much does it cost per annum to imprison a worthless POS?

Add into the equation the fact that their prison cell will be modestly furnished and they will have all the amenities (Sky/Virgin tv etc) and be given 3 daily meals in their warm dry environment and have access to free support, free training etc

Yet we have thousands of homeless who have to survive in the cold with hopefully at least one good meal a day.

I don't care about the cost personally - with individuals like that above I'd offer to do the job for nothing so long as my identity is kept secret.

And yes, if there is doubt in any conviction, then let them rot/do the time. Yes if there is mental issues let them rot/do the time but don't let them out unless you (those in authority) are prepared to take full and total responsibility.

But

and it's a big but

This isn't just about the death penalty - it's about those in authority taking responsibility for their actions - they should be held fully accountable.
Edited by: "philphil61" 2nd Jan
Wongy11021 m ago

No Phil never bring back the death penalty An eye for an eye makes the …No Phil never bring back the death penalty An eye for an eye makes the whole world blindIt can never ever be reversedIs a slippery slope to loading people into cattle trucksand if you must the legal costs will out way any savings.did I miss anything ?and all of this against your what your hate ? revenge ?


The death penalty is a deterrent which stops people killing other people knowing they could suffer the same
fate - take away that fear and you have people with no respect for human life - take a look at the stabbings
out there, acid attacks etc etc they don't think of their jail time as punishment, they wear it as a
badge of honour.

Asking for the death penalty is not hate or revenge unless it happens to be your mother/sister/daughter/niece.......
than its hate, revenge and whatever else goes through your mind to think that some worthless
pos is going to sit in a warm jail cell with three meals a day, medical and dental on tap,
access to library, online learning courses etc etc ..........
Alfsmum8 m ago

The death penalty is a deterrent which stops people killing other people


It's not a particularly effective deterrent then...
170 Comments
No Phil
never bring back the death penalty

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind

It can never ever be reversed

Is a slippery slope to loading people into cattle trucks

and if you must the legal costs will out way any savings.


did I miss anything ?

and all of this against your what your hate ? revenge ?
Edited by: "Wongy110" 2nd Jan
I'm sure it was a tragic accident
Original Poster
Wongy11016 m ago

No Phil never bring back the death penalty An eye for an eye makes the …No Phil never bring back the death penalty An eye for an eye makes the whole world blindIt can never ever be reversedIs a slippery slope to loading people into cattle trucksand if you must the legal costs will out way any savings.did I miss anything ?and all of this against your what your hate ? revenge ?


And how much does it cost per annum to imprison a worthless POS?

Add into the equation the fact that their prison cell will be modestly furnished and they will have all the amenities (Sky/Virgin tv etc) and be given 3 daily meals in their warm dry environment and have access to free support, free training etc

Yet we have thousands of homeless who have to survive in the cold with hopefully at least one good meal a day.

I don't care about the cost personally - with individuals like that above I'd offer to do the job for nothing so long as my identity is kept secret.

And yes, if there is doubt in any conviction, then let them rot/do the time. Yes if there is mental issues let them rot/do the time but don't let them out unless you (those in authority) are prepared to take full and total responsibility.

But

and it's a big but

This isn't just about the death penalty - it's about those in authority taking responsibility for their actions - they should be held fully accountable.
Edited by: "philphil61" 2nd Jan
philphil615 m ago

And how much does it cost per annum to imprison a worthless POS? Add into …And how much does it cost per annum to imprison a worthless POS? Add into the equation the fact that their prison cell will be modestly furnished and they will have all the amenities (Sky/Virgin tv etc) and be given 3 daily meals in their warm dry environment and have access to free support, free training etcYet we have thousands of homeless who have to survive in the cold with hopefully at least one good meal a day.I don't care about the cost personally - with individuals like that above I'd offer to do the job for nothing so long as my identity is kept secret.And yes, if there is doubt in any conviction, then let them rot/do the time. Yes if there is mental issues let them rot/do the time but don't let them out unless you (those in authority) are prepared to take full and total responsibility.


There is always a doubt about conviction !

The legal costs will be endless just look at bretix or how it does't work across the pond ffs ?

as to how our current system doesn't work just look at who holds the purse strings

and vote accordingly.
Wongy11021 m ago

No Phil never bring back the death penalty An eye for an eye makes the …No Phil never bring back the death penalty An eye for an eye makes the whole world blindIt can never ever be reversedIs a slippery slope to loading people into cattle trucksand if you must the legal costs will out way any savings.did I miss anything ?and all of this against your what your hate ? revenge ?


The death penalty is a deterrent which stops people killing other people knowing they could suffer the same
fate - take away that fear and you have people with no respect for human life - take a look at the stabbings
out there, acid attacks etc etc they don't think of their jail time as punishment, they wear it as a
badge of honour.

Asking for the death penalty is not hate or revenge unless it happens to be your mother/sister/daughter/niece.......
than its hate, revenge and whatever else goes through your mind to think that some worthless
pos is going to sit in a warm jail cell with three meals a day, medical and dental on tap,
access to library, online learning courses etc etc ..........
Alfsmum8 m ago

The death penalty is a deterrent which stops people killing other people


It's not a particularly effective deterrent then...
RossD8926 m ago

It's not a particularly effective deterrent then...


It’s very effective, never heard about anyone being killed by convict after the death penalty.
The system seems so inconsistent, you have some people with no release date and others who commits such brutal crimes with short sentences. I'm guessing he plead guilty each time and copped a deal, offered to save tax payer money.

It's a shame it all comes down to finances, they always say a small percentage of people commit the majority of crimes so longer sentences across the boar (well nearly across the board) just make sense no matter the financial cost.
Absolutely agree this man should not have been released. How was his man freed a second time to kill a third woman, no justice and women's lives not valued. They must have known he was a danger to women.
varaha8 m ago

It’s very effective, never heard about anyone being killed by convict a …It’s very effective, never heard about anyone being killed by convict after the death penalty.



So..... It's not an effective deterrent then if people commit crimes which are punishable by death, is it?
Edited by: "RossD89" 2nd Jan
Killing 3 women is not an accident!
He cant be rehabilitated, death penalty for him would be the right solution.
He made more of an effort than the justice system, he tried to kill himself. I also think this is why we should be able to see someone’s criminal history if we are in a relationship, he had previously killed 2 partners before he met Best. I wish I would’ve been a criminal pshycologist, studying the mind of these people must be surreal.
Edited by: "jayonline85" 2nd Jan
Alfsmum1 h, 8 m ago

The death penalty is a deterrent which stops people killing other people …The death penalty is a deterrent which stops people killing other people knowing they could suffer the samefate - take away that fear and you have people with no respect for human life - take a look at the stabbingsout there, acid attacks etc etc they don't think of their jail time as punishment, they wear it as a badge of honour.Asking for the death penalty is not hate or revenge unless it happens to be your mother/sister/daughter/niece.......than its hate, revenge and whatever else goes through your mind to think that some worthlesspos is going to sit in a warm jail cell with three meals a day, medical and dental on tap, access to library, online learning courses etc etc ..........



It is NOT a deterrent - just look at countries where they have the death penalty - they've got far more murders than here, it doesn't seem to be deterring anyone - in fact, it might even be increasing the incidence of murder.

Over here victims can be left badly beaten - but a lot still recover (thank God), but in these countries thugs know if they leave someone alive they've got more chance of execution or going away for a very long time, thus it can vastly increase murders - thugs there know not to leave witnesses.

I don't know the answer, but I'm not going to ignore the facts - state murder for murder does NOT work.
RossD8929 m ago

So..... It's not an effective deterrent then if people commit crimes which …So..... It's not an effective deterrent then if people commit crimes which are punishable by death, is it?


But again, the guy mentioned by op would stop after the first killing. If any doubts- prison, no doubts...
varaha5 m ago

But again, the guy mentioned by op would stop after the first killing. If …But again, the guy mentioned by op would stop after the first killing. If any doubts- prison, no doubts...


Not really sure you understand what a deterrent is...
Phil never bring the death penalty back, They have it in certain states of america and it doesnt work.plus they argue that it actually costs more to put someone to death than keep them in prison with all the red tape

think in this case its the psychiatrists fault or lack of any mental health care in the whole just judicial system along with outside help was the problem
tryn2help14 m ago

It is NOT a deterrent - just look at countries where they have the death …It is NOT a deterrent - just look at countries where they have the death penalty - they've got far more murders than here, it doesn't seem to be deterring anyone - in fact, it might even be increasing the incidence of murder. Over here victims can be left badly beaten - but a lot still recover (thank God), but in these countries thugs know if they leave someone alive they've got more chance of execution or going away for a very long time, thus it can vastly increase murders - thugs there know not to leave witnesses.I don't know the answer, but I'm not going to ignore the facts - state murder for murder does NOT work.


This plus a zillion

What bs have you folks been reading ffs ?

It costs very little to put them in a isolation tank and plumb in a stoma and drip feed. You can keep them floating in there for decades in bliss whilst protecting civilised people
Edited by: "kester76" 2nd Jan
Original Poster
themachman14 m ago

Phil never bring the death penalty back, They have it in certain states of …Phil never bring the death penalty back, They have it in certain states of america and it doesnt work.plus they argue that it actually costs more to put someone to death than keep them in prison with all the red tape think in this case its the psychiatrists fault or lack of any mental health care in the whole just judicial system along with outside help was the problem


The only reason it costs more is because of all the Human Rights and challenging the sentence etc - I'm talking about this particular scum. He has now killed 3 times.

Some people, like this scum, IMHO chose to give up their Human Rights on the second offence

But again I reiterate this thread isn't about the death penalty << that is only my opinion


It's about those in authority, those decision makers being held accountable for their actions.


Whoever thought that 2 years for the 2nd murder was sufficient to allow this scum to be released back into society needs to be jailed - then hopefully those in authority, those decision makers will be deterred from making stupid...real stupid decisions that have at this time no consequences for those individuals but may have consequences upon an innocent person..
Edited by: "philphil61" 2nd Jan
RossD8918 m ago

Not really sure you understand what a deterrent is...


Is there a less of theft because thieves are being imprisoned?

At the end of the day, the biggest deterrent is not the severity of the punishment, but certainity of being punished for the crimes. As per murderers, society should be freed of them in this way or another and prisons shouldn’t be a kindergarten (look at Breivik in Norway...).
philphil6117 m ago

The only reason it costs more is because of all the Human Rights and …The only reason it costs more is because of all the Human Rights and challenging the sentence etc - I'm talking about this particular scum. He has now killed 3 times.Some people, like this scum, IMHO chose to give up their Human Rights on the second offenceBut again I reiterate this thread isn't about the death penalty << that is only my opinion It's about those in authority, those decision makers being held accountable for their actions.Whoever thought that 2 years for the 2nd murder was sufficient to allow this scum to be released back into society needs to be jailed - then hopefully those in authority, those decision makers will be deterred from making stupid...real stupid decisions that have at this time no consequences for those individuals but may have consequences upon an innocent person..


You tried to hide it at the bottom there mate
but that is not how justice works !
philphil6120 m ago

I'm talking about this particular scum, this thread isn't about the death …I'm talking about this particular scum, this thread isn't about the death penalty. It's about those in authority, those decision makers being held accountable for their actions.



Not going to happen, Phil, can of worms been opened and peeps go with their strongest feeling - kill it with fire!

Peeps don't think about it - they're afraid, afraid it could be them or, God forbid it, their loved ones next - they want the threat removed - even if it means killing it.

What they're missing is they want to kill - it's in them.

We think of murderers as being evil people with twisted minds - we think some people aren't capable of murder, but is that true?
All it takes to be a murderer is the desire to kill another human being - and we see a lot of potential murderers in attendance in this thread.

They'll try to justify it - but murderers do that too.


All human beings are natural born killers - they're quick to kill in their minds - and if push came to shove they'd be just as quick in reality.
There are certain criminals where the death penalty would be justified, like Fred and Rose West for example, Lee Rigby killers etc. Every case should be judged independently, The death penalty in most circumstances wouldn't be enforced but would be justified in rare circumstances like in this case and yes those responsible for his release should be held partially accountable. The victims families should all be compensated too. The system has clearly let them down.
We must protect a psychopath's human right to be able to murder as many people as he wants while out of custody.
Alfsmum3 h, 3 m ago

The death penalty is a deterrent which stops people killing other people …The death penalty is a deterrent which stops people killing other people knowing they could suffer the samefate - take away that fear and you have people with no respect for human life - take a look at the stabbingsout there, acid attacks etc etc they don't think of their jail time as punishment, they wear it as a badge of honour.Asking for the death penalty is not hate or revenge unless it happens to be your mother/sister/daughter/niece.......than its hate, revenge and whatever else goes through your mind to think that some worthlesspos is going to sit in a warm jail cell with three meals a day, medical and dental on tap, access to library, online learning courses etc etc ..........


I'm sorry but thats rubbish, its not a deterrent at all. Thats been proven time and time again in studies all over the world. Plus, most murders are 'spur of the moment' killings and people don't think about any deterrent when they do it. A lot also don't think they will get caught, so again, if you believe you won't get caught, no punishment will be a deterrent. A life sentence should be a deterrent but it clearly isn't either, as murders still happen. Plus, in this case it wouldn't have made any difference as he wasn't convicted of murder for the first 2 killings.

Unfortunately, in cases like this when its a diminished responsibility conviction, once in the hospital then if he ticks all the boxes they can't keep him. 2 years for the second killing does seem extremely short though and I hope questions are asked.
The only thing I would say is how common is this!
Do we start changing the law because this and probably a very few others that may have slipped through the justice system.

Whilst it's horrific to hear the story , it's not a justification to bring in the death penalty.

As has been said , it's been proven that a death penalty is not a deterrent.

However I am in agreement with having some sort of penalty for those who were involved in releasing this scum.
varaha1 h, 40 m ago

Is there a less of theft because thieves are being imprisoned? At the end …Is there a less of theft because thieves are being imprisoned? At the end of the day, the biggest deterrent is not the severity of the punishment, but certainity of being punished for the crimes. As per murderers, society should be freed of them in this way or another and prisons shouldn’t be a kindergarten (look at Breivik in Norway...).


Strange you talk about Norway and at the same time say prisons shouldn't be soft, yet Norwegian prisons are probably the easiest in Europe, and have the lowest re-offending rates. Like this one for example

theguardian.com/soc…ple

You also have extremely soft prisons in Sweden, another country where the re-offending rates are around half what they are in the UK

theguardian.com/soc…ons

Prisons in the UK aren't soft. Giving them a TV helps calm the jail, its not to make things soft. A landing of hundreds of cons can have 3-4 officers to control them all, currently, prisons only work in the UK because prisoners allow them to. Yes they aren't out breaking rocks 12 hours a day, but they aren't sitting round using laptops on the internet, watching sky tv on a 55" screen either like some reports make out.

Lifers are the hardest to control too, they have nothing to lose. You have to give them something you can take away otherwise there would be chaos and many more assaults etc in jails.
Edited by: "julieallen" 2nd Jan
varaha1 h, 40 m ago

Is there a less of theft because thieves are being imprisoned? At the end …Is there a less of theft because thieves are being imprisoned? At the end of the day, the biggest deterrent is not the severity of the punishment, but certainity of being punished for the crimes. As per murderers, society should be freed of them in this way or another and prisons shouldn’t be a kindergarten (look at Breivik in Norway...).


Yea, still not sure you understand the definition of deterrent...
Original Poster
Whatever peoples principles/perception/choices are regarding sentencing, punishment and/or prison the fact remains that somebody or body of people decided that this POS was mentally unstable when he killed the second time.

And then some person or body of people decided that after only 2 years of institutional care that this POS was suitable to be released into society.

Whoever these people are they should be named and shamed and jailed for their lack of responsibility, for their negligent acts in their profession or fraud for impersonating a position they fully don't understand.
philphil618 m ago

Whatever peoples principles/perception/choices are regarding sentencing, …Whatever peoples principles/perception/choices are regarding sentencing, punishment and/or prison the fact remains that somebody or body of people decided that this POS was mentally unstable when he killed the second time.And then some person or body of people decided that after only 2 years of institutional care that this POS was suitable to be released into society.Whoever these people are they should be named and shamed and jailed for their lack of responsibility, for their negligent acts in their profession or fraud for impersonating a position they fully don't understand.


I don't think anybody disagrees with you on this point, there's not really much debate to be had, that's why people are discussing your comments on the death penalty.
Original Poster
Rubisco8 m ago

I don't think anybody disagrees with you on this point, there's not really …I don't think anybody disagrees with you on this point, there's not really much debate to be had, that's why people are discussing your comments on the death penalty.


If people want to discuss agree or disagree with the death penalty then AFAIK it's still a free (almost) country and people are still entitled to their opinion.

I'd like to see officials/decision makers/managers/judges/MP's etc held fully accountable for their actions

If any everyday employee was negligent in their duty that caused the loss of life then they would probably be dismissed and most definitely taken to court and so it should be for those that decided a convicted criminal can be released early or given a light sentence only for them to re-offend - only then might we see proper sentencing and proper decisions regarding the convicted
airfix2 h, 19 m ago

We must protect a psychopath's human right to be able to murder as many …We must protect a psychopath's human right to be able to murder as many people as he wants while out of custody.



I understand you being sarky, Airfix.

Being outraged and even enraged by this scumbag lowlife's despicable behaviour is perfectly normal, it's right and proper for all of us to feel as we do, but we can't allow ourselves to become as he is - not only does that make us hypocrits it seriously undermines our whole stance on murder.

We are outraged and enraged because we as a society agree that life is precious - so precious that no human being has the right to take it from another - and that includes us - the State.

If we start making allowances we immediately abandon our morals and our stance on murder loses all credibility.

We can't be partially against murder any more than we could be partially against rape - we're either TOTALLY against it or we're not against it at all.
.MUFC.3 h, 11 m ago

There are certain criminals where the death penalty would be justified, …There are certain criminals where the death penalty would be justified, like Fred and Rose West for example, Lee Rigby killers etc. Every case should be judged independently, The death penalty in most circumstances wouldn't be enforced but would be justified in rare circumstances like in this case and yes those responsible for his release should be held partially accountable. The victims families should all be compensated too. The system has clearly let them down.


So what you're saying is that you favour a European-style civil law system over our current British common law system?
Banned
I WILL BE THE GOVERNMENT HANG MAN FOR YOU FOR FREE! You provide the rope or even just a big hammer.

In fact I would take great delight in trolling them weeks in advance.
Graham197925 m ago

In fact I would take great delight in trolling them weeks in advance.


You would make them read your posts on here?
philphil611 h, 52 m ago

If people want to discuss agree or disagree with the death penalty then …If people want to discuss agree or disagree with the death penalty then AFAIK it's still a free (almost) country and people are still entitled to their opinion.I'd like to see officials/decision makers/managers/judges/MP's etc held fully accountable for their actionsIf any everyday employee was negligent in their duty that caused the loss of life then they would probably be dismissed and most definitely taken to court and so it should be for those that decided a convicted criminal can be released early or given a light sentence only for them to re-offend - only then might we see proper sentencing and proper decisions regarding the convicted


You do realise there were probably dozens of people involved in his release each time? Especially the second time. The first time he got 3 years, so in accordance with the law at the time, the most he would have served was 2 years. Possibly 18 months if he got parole.

Mistakes are made in all areas of life, clearly in this case, in hindsight, the wrong decisions were made, but at the time they most likely seemed right. Thats not to say questions shouldn't be asked, but there are no details of the first 2 convictions or what happened so I'm not sure how you can imply the sentencing was wrong. The fact he got 3 years for the first offence would suggest he had some pretty strong mitigation, 3 years is, and was back then, a very short sentence for manslaughter.

The court of appeal exists for decisions made in court that are unduly lenient, which would suggest, at the time, the CPS were happy enough with both outcomes.
julieallen3 h, 42 m ago

Strange you talk about Norway and at the same time say prisons shouldn't …Strange you talk about Norway and at the same time say prisons shouldn't be soft, yet Norwegian prisons are probably the easiest in Europe, and have the lowest re-offending rates. Like this one for examplehttps://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-peopleYou also have extremely soft prisons in Sweden, another country where the re-offending rates are around half what they are in the UKhttps://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/01/why-sweden-closing-prisonsPrisons in the UK aren't soft. Giving them a TV helps calm the jail, its not to make things soft. A landing of hundreds of cons can have 3-4 officers to control them all, currently, prisons only work in the UK because prisoners allow them to. Yes they aren't out breaking rocks 12 hours a day, but they aren't sitting round using laptops on the internet, watching sky tv on a 55" screen either like some reports make out.Lifers are the hardest to control too, they have nothing to lose. You have to give them something you can take away otherwise there would be chaos and many more assaults etc in jails.


People need to stop comparing the the UK to the Scandies , or cultures are so radically different you might aswell compare us to the gloop glorps from Romulus 7.

Whats more the soft nicey nicey prison angle papers always push is very missleading, most are like the ones we have in the UK. If you read accounts from actual prisoners there are alot of crappy prisons/rough in Scandanavia.

Here is an example of them building something more prison like;
thelocal.se/200…466
Everybody deserves a second chance, however if murder was involved, i d be a no mercy judge
Here we go again phil wants to kill people, kill, kill, kill save money by killing thats all he ever says.

What we have here is more proof our mental health services are a joke
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