Posted 1 December 2023
Disupte with a contractor - am I right or wrong?
First and foremost, I would like to stress that I am not the type of person who wants to avoid paying for any type of jobs carried out, but also I am the type of person who fights for themselves and doesn't let to be fooled easily.
So basically, as the story begins, I have some intermittent issues with my boiler, where sometimes when you turn the hot water on in taps it doesn't turn on. This somehow can be fixed by opening another tap.
1. So given some recommendation I have received, I have called one of the local companies. The company on their website has that they provide free, no obligation quotes to all customers. During the phone call, I have described the issue and said that I would like to get it checked out/fixed (unfortunately I do not remember the precise wording I used), the guy said he would confirm when someone can come to check it out. Question: Is that a legally binding verbal contract? Given the information I have found on the Internet, there is no consideration here as the guy did not state any fees associated with the job, which is understandable cause he would need to check what is wrong, etc. However he also doesn't mention any fees payable for him to come and check it out.
2. Fast forward a few days, the guy comes and checks the boiler, opens the case and after some tap turning on/off, diagnoses the issue to be a flow sensor/turbine. He said he would check the parts and come back with the quote.
3. Later in the day he texts me back with a quote of 340+vat for the part and labour. Me being me, I have decided to check out the part to see how expensive it is, noting that it ranges between 20 and 40 pounds online. Hence, the labour seemed pretty steep so I have contacted a few other local gas engineers for quotes and I have been quoted around 100 pounds for labour on top of the part (the one of my choice also confirmed the part number based on the gc number, etc).
4. I informed the original guy about this and that I believe that he tried to significantly overcharge me for the service and that after getting quotes from other gas engineers, I would not like to proceed with his quote.
5. The guy said that I owe him for an hour labour (he was at the property maybe for 15 minutes) charged at 80+vat and that I need to pay (I have checked rates for similar services online which range between 25-60 pounds/hour). He argued that the quote included time to go and pick the part (not that you can get free next day delivery on these parts from what I have seen). He said that the parts are more expensive than 40, but when I asked him for part numbers to verify, of course he didn't provide because clearly he knows they do not cost more.
6. I have argued the fact that they have free quotes/estimates on the website and that I was not happy with the quote provided - he countered saying that I didn't ask for a quote but to fix the boiler. While over the phone I did not specifically ask for a quote, it is common sense that I would not agree to do the repair at whatever cost, so I would expect a quote after the issue has been diagnosed.
7. He is still persisting that I need to pay for the invoice and otherwise he will involve bailiffs/small claims court. Funny thing is that I never actually received any invoice from him, just a text message that I owe him amount and need to pay to that account. This as far as I am aware is not a legally binding invoice and he is already threatening me with debt collection/court.
So to sum up, again I appreciate that he has carried out the inspection and I would be happy to pay for it but given that I believe that he has been trying to rip me off I want to stand my ground and argue about this, my main points being:
* During initial conversation over the phone, I do not believe that we entered a legally binding contract since there was no consideration (he never mentioned any charges for checking/verifying what the fault is) * this information is not present anywhere on the website and at no point I was informed about this charge, so he could have equally said that I owe him 5000, not just 80?
* he claims that I asked him to just come and fix the boiler, so why did he send me a quote after checking the fault rather than just coming to fix the boiler? For me the quote that he provided fits their website claim of free quotes, he claims that he has done work outside of the free quote, but it does not mention anywhere on the website what is the extent of that.
* he blatantly lied to me on numerous occasions - about the parts cost, about him having to travel from further than where the office actually is
* he did not provide me with an invoice, but he is already threatening me with debt collection/court action, which I see as bullying and an actual offence against me
Having said that, I always try to be fair and I have no problems paying for the job done. What I do have problems with is chancers like that who use bullying and rely on lack of knowledge from customers - if I did not check the actual parts/labour costs with other companies, I would have probably paid 340+vat. I wonder if you guys have any advice on how to approach this situation, should I try to fight my way out of it or just pay and forget? 80 quid + vat is not the end of the world, but it is more principle than money for me now, especially that he wants pretty much same amount for a 15 min check that another guy to actually fix the issue. Needless to say, if I do pay for it I will expect to be provided an official invoice from which I have 30 days to pay, according to this: gov.uk/inv…ons
and of course I will take my sweet time before I send any payment.
Thanks to whoever actually read this long post
So basically, as the story begins, I have some intermittent issues with my boiler, where sometimes when you turn the hot water on in taps it doesn't turn on. This somehow can be fixed by opening another tap.
1. So given some recommendation I have received, I have called one of the local companies. The company on their website has that they provide free, no obligation quotes to all customers. During the phone call, I have described the issue and said that I would like to get it checked out/fixed (unfortunately I do not remember the precise wording I used), the guy said he would confirm when someone can come to check it out. Question: Is that a legally binding verbal contract? Given the information I have found on the Internet, there is no consideration here as the guy did not state any fees associated with the job, which is understandable cause he would need to check what is wrong, etc. However he also doesn't mention any fees payable for him to come and check it out.
2. Fast forward a few days, the guy comes and checks the boiler, opens the case and after some tap turning on/off, diagnoses the issue to be a flow sensor/turbine. He said he would check the parts and come back with the quote.
3. Later in the day he texts me back with a quote of 340+vat for the part and labour. Me being me, I have decided to check out the part to see how expensive it is, noting that it ranges between 20 and 40 pounds online. Hence, the labour seemed pretty steep so I have contacted a few other local gas engineers for quotes and I have been quoted around 100 pounds for labour on top of the part (the one of my choice also confirmed the part number based on the gc number, etc).
4. I informed the original guy about this and that I believe that he tried to significantly overcharge me for the service and that after getting quotes from other gas engineers, I would not like to proceed with his quote.
5. The guy said that I owe him for an hour labour (he was at the property maybe for 15 minutes) charged at 80+vat and that I need to pay (I have checked rates for similar services online which range between 25-60 pounds/hour). He argued that the quote included time to go and pick the part (not that you can get free next day delivery on these parts from what I have seen). He said that the parts are more expensive than 40, but when I asked him for part numbers to verify, of course he didn't provide because clearly he knows they do not cost more.
6. I have argued the fact that they have free quotes/estimates on the website and that I was not happy with the quote provided - he countered saying that I didn't ask for a quote but to fix the boiler. While over the phone I did not specifically ask for a quote, it is common sense that I would not agree to do the repair at whatever cost, so I would expect a quote after the issue has been diagnosed.
7. He is still persisting that I need to pay for the invoice and otherwise he will involve bailiffs/small claims court. Funny thing is that I never actually received any invoice from him, just a text message that I owe him amount and need to pay to that account. This as far as I am aware is not a legally binding invoice and he is already threatening me with debt collection/court.
So to sum up, again I appreciate that he has carried out the inspection and I would be happy to pay for it but given that I believe that he has been trying to rip me off I want to stand my ground and argue about this, my main points being:
* During initial conversation over the phone, I do not believe that we entered a legally binding contract since there was no consideration (he never mentioned any charges for checking/verifying what the fault is) * this information is not present anywhere on the website and at no point I was informed about this charge, so he could have equally said that I owe him 5000, not just 80?
* he claims that I asked him to just come and fix the boiler, so why did he send me a quote after checking the fault rather than just coming to fix the boiler? For me the quote that he provided fits their website claim of free quotes, he claims that he has done work outside of the free quote, but it does not mention anywhere on the website what is the extent of that.
* he blatantly lied to me on numerous occasions - about the parts cost, about him having to travel from further than where the office actually is
* he did not provide me with an invoice, but he is already threatening me with debt collection/court action, which I see as bullying and an actual offence against me
Having said that, I always try to be fair and I have no problems paying for the job done. What I do have problems with is chancers like that who use bullying and rely on lack of knowledge from customers - if I did not check the actual parts/labour costs with other companies, I would have probably paid 340+vat. I wonder if you guys have any advice on how to approach this situation, should I try to fight my way out of it or just pay and forget? 80 quid + vat is not the end of the world, but it is more principle than money for me now, especially that he wants pretty much same amount for a 15 min check that another guy to actually fix the issue. Needless to say, if I do pay for it I will expect to be provided an official invoice from which I have 30 days to pay, according to this: gov.uk/inv…ons
and of course I will take my sweet time before I send any payment.
Thanks to whoever actually read this long post
Community Updates
72 Comments
sorted bySeems quite a few people on here are happy to get scammed, no wonder so many cowboys about. (edited)
You don’t just pay for his time on site, you are paying for his knowledge and experience so that he is ONLY there on site for 15mins.
Would you be happier if some one fresh out of training came and charged you the same but stayed for the whole hour and looked confused at what it was just so you think you got your monies worth.
Also, the other people you contacted don’t need to diagnose or come out first and then make a repeat visit so will naturally be cheaper.
If he wasn't a con artist he would have got the job.
Without the labour he supplied you with you wouldn't know what caused the issue & had the details to pass on to the other engineers.
A free quote is a free quote for a job to be done such as replacing all the radiators or fitting a new boiler & not investigating an issue to solve a problem for free.
My suspicion is that they will not....but if they will then he can get confirmation of the fault for free and be happy that the original tradesmen was being unfair. If however no-one is prepared to do that then it might answer his original quandary.
And make sure that you have it in writing.
This has enabled the OP to go out and find cheaper quotes that will cost him approx £100.....so the other gas engineers will just fit the part and won't have to do the diagnosis/fault-finding which would probably then incur additional costs from them.
I do hope it is the flow valve though....because if its not you'll have paid for an unnecessary part and fitting. Then you'll have to pay for further investigation.
Maybe the OP should find another gas engineer/company that offers free quotes and then phone them up and specifically tell them that you want them to come and look at the boiler and diagnose and quote for repair for free and see if they come out and do that.
The guy obviously gave more than a quote here, he looked at the system and diagnosed the problem.
Also tradsemen don't just appear at your door, they have taken time out of their day, possibly battled traffic/come from another town/missed out on other work while coming to your home.
A gas safe invoice has to be issued... Or there's no contract, no contract no payment - simple as.
Basically been used to find issue and identify parts required then been told not too bother and thanks for the free work etc. (edited)
No paperwork = go swivel
Go on the Citizens Advice website or give them a call for free. impartial advice.
Personally I wouldn't engage any further with the contractor. Had a similar thing afew years back with a removals firm. Agreed a quote to do 'x' work, I arrived at the store first and single-handledly loaded a separate van myself before they'd even arrived (which included a fair chunk of the stuff that was covered by their quote) , when we arrived at the new property and they'd completed unloading their van, they then 'kindly' offered to help me unload my van (including numerous items that they should have loaded and unloaded anyway), made no mention of additional charges etc.
When we'd finished and it came to paying the bill they added £100 to their costs for unloading my van. I (stupidly) couldn't be bothered to argue at the time and felt a little uneasy kicking up a fuss with several big blokes around me, but the following week posted a critical review on Google regarding this extra charge which had never been discussed or agreed. Within 15 minutes of posting that review I got a call from the company begging me to remove the written part of the review and offering to refund me the £100. Which they immediately did, and I removed the written part of the review (but not the overall low rating).
I have my own business and it never ceases to surprise me how many 'chancers' they are out there. (edited)
a free quote may be where he turns up to have a quick look at the boiler but not open it and do anything really. so i think it is fair that he charges for his time as you would save this money from employing another person as they don't have to spend time diagnosing the problem.
he could have been clearer with the quote stage. but with these things, you would need to have had something in writing that you are looking for a quote to repair the issue right at the beginning, and more than likely no one will turn up as it isn't a big job so quoting is a waste of time for them in this weather as they will have lots of jobs that are sure to pay. (edited)
What I take from it is that both parties could have been clearer from the outset and maybe both are trying to use that to their advantage.
I'll remember to seek clarity for any similar situations in the future.
*By your own admittance, you cant remember if you asked for the boiler to be fixed - I cant imagine any engineer starting to open up a boiler and to diagnose a fault without being 'employed' to do so.
He should have been clear when he opened his toolbag that you were being charged though.
It's so easy to do in this day and age, and the consequences can be severely damaging in the long run. If the engineer fails he moves on lost a few £ in court fees, if he wins he gets his money and someone's credit is damaged.
Engineer has very little to lose and all to gain. (edited)
All you have is "free quote". There is no other record and you have a record of this on the website.
I have had similar in the past.
Old house we had a lanscaper in for a free quote for back garden which we agreed to and paid a £1000 deposit to secure the date. We then subsequently decided to move house and let the landscaper know who refused to refund the deposit due to loosing the date (it was 8 months prior to the start date so plenty of time to fill the slot), spending time on design in cad and quoting.
I sent him a 3 page letter quoting his site where it states quotes are free, the invoice which stated a deposit to secure a date and no associated terms that this isn't refundable and no invoice for the cad drawing (this was a 2d CAD, done in house which would have taken about 10min.
At the end of the letter I said I would be happy to accept a £750 refund to put the matter to bed and avoid legal action. He refunded the £750 within an hour of him getting the letter by email. I should have just gone for the full £1k due to the fact he was being obtuse about the situation.
More recently I had someone out to quote for a new gate install on a private driveway. Whilst he was talking I asked if he knew how my garage door adjusted as it was really slow to rise (electric). Instead of just saying do xyz he just went ahead and adjusted it.
As he was getting into the van he said he will build the quote and if its agreeable he'll knock the call out charge off. I questioned, "what call out charge" and he replied "for adjusting the door". I simply replied, I didn't asked you to adjust it, just if you knew how to adjust it. He left and I never heard from him again as I think he knew better than to even bother with the quote at that point.
If all you have is a text message then I would just ignore it to be honest.
The OP had work done.
Would you not have paid the gardener a penny if you told him to stop building your new rockery if he had already primed the ground? No. Well, I would hope you would at least pay him for the time he spent on the job before you told him to stop.
Whilst I agree that people should be paid for the job they carry out, I am extremely disappointed with the approach of the engineer to the entire situation and I do not want to pay/ I want to delay the payment as far as possible out of principle.
Regardless of the moral/ethical aspect of this situation, I believe that lawfully he would be in the wrong because:
* on the website they advertise free quotes and at no point I was informed that the scope of the work done exceeds that
* at no point I was informed about charges associated with the inspection if I didn’t want to proceed with the quote
* Thus far I wasn’t even provided with an invoice, just a text message saying pay X to account Y, but I was threatened with debt collection agency and court action- not a law expert but I can’t see it being legal to take someone to debt collection agency over an invoice they have never even provided
I would quite happily just leave it and let it pan out based on the aspects above, but my concern is that if they do indeed go to the debt collection agency, that might leave a bad mark on my credit report and I am looking to move houses next year. If that wasn’t the case, I would be quite happy to take this further and argue my way out of it - again not for the stupid 80 quid but for the principle, because if he does that with me then surely he will do that with others.
unless of course I am wrong here again and it is my responsibility to ask for an invoice, which I would honestly find quite surprising .
Not quite sure what your motivation was to post a thread about it.
Is the day rate fair? Difficult to say, but if its going to take him more than half a day from his first visit then year that pretty normal. Asking for a quote to a problem thats already diagnosed isn't really a fair comparison. They would be coming over with the part ready to fit.
The free delivery comment seems a bit petty imo. You've asked for your boiler to be fixed so he's going to get the part and fix it today! Most trades people won't order part for delivery unless it's not available at any local merchants or it's too big to be collected.
The £80 is no doubt for 2 hours for him to come over diagnose the fault, identify, source the part and cost. If you've asked it to be fixed then that's why he's come over. Why has a quote been text to you after? It's a good point. It might be standard practice now. So many of my friends in the building game have recently had customers refuse to pay them after doing the work because they think it's too expensive.
Should you pay? Probably. Or make a counter offer for 40-50 quid
OP, are you just going to buy the part yourself and get another engineer to fit it? Without them diagnosing the fault first?
If they did not mention that the visit will be charged at a fee, then that's on them, not you. Verbal contracts can be legally binding but unless they SPECIFICALLY mentioned a fee for the visit, their case is going to be very difficult, especially as they mention no-fee obligation on their website (I'd take a snapshot / video recording of their site just in case and keep any communication saved).
TL:DR; he's not taking any legal action, that's just scare tactics, and if he does, he has no ground to stand on.