Posted 3 days ago

What would you do in this situation?

After consulting with an engineer on a rear extension of 6m for my semi detached house, he advised this is possible under the 'prior approval' process as long as the neighbours do not object.

Engineer then submits a 6m rear extension prior approval request to the council on our behalf, gets in touch 3 weeks later to let us know it was rejected because one of the neighbours objected. I was immediately a bit confused since it had only been 3 weeks and I was told it was a 6 week process.

We asked our engineer to see the rejection so we can learn from it and understand what we can change and which neighbour objected. After asking 4-5 times he does not even acknowledge the request and brushes it off.

This makes me a bit suspicious, so I directly reach out to the council and copy in the engineer to ask for the refusal. Finally this forces the engineer to send me the refusal.

Date on the refusal was 11 days after the submission, and says:

The proposal as shown on the plans, by reason of projecting beyond an original flank wall and being greater than half of the width of the original dwelling, fails to meet the criteria set out within Class A of Part 1 of Schedule 2 of the General Permitted Development Order 2015 (as amended).

For me the refusal clearly shows that the council rejected it before it even reached the neighbours. The engineer wasted both our time and money on the application, when they should have known that it would be refused, if we been told that it would not be covered under prior approval we would not have asked the engineer to submit an application on our behalf.

Secondly, and what I'm more upset about is that we were lied to, we were told one of the neighbours objected. It's now clear to me why they did not send the refusal letter; since they did not want to own up to the fact that they made a mistake.

Looking for some advice and what steps you would take from this position?
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  1. acb76's avatar
    The first point to acknowledge is that everyone makes mistakes (both in the field of town planning and in every other area of life and work) - I've worked in town planning for 26 years now and man times I've come across this kind of scenario, or similar scenarios whereby Councils or other statutory bodies have made factual errors. I'm currently managing an application for over 70 homes which is now being extensively delayed/having to be redesigned because when the client's flood risk consultant contacted the Environment Agency to obtain modelling data, it transpires the EA provided the wrong data. Even I've made the odd mistake - no-one is perfect.

    Whether the 'engineer' is a sole trader or part of a large multidisciplinary consultancy, if they are calling themselves an architect or a town planner then to do so they must be either a Member of RIBA (architect) or RTPI (planner). But my (RTPI) code of conduct doesn't say I can't ever make a mistake, it says that Members are expected "to apply reasonable standards of skill, knowledge and care in the performance of all their work" so what is defined as 'reasonable' is open to interpretation.

    Nothing in my written terms of engagement says if I make a mistake the client is due compensation or a refund, and I never work on a no win no fee basis. Similarly many people working in these fields are not chartered members of their respective professional bodies (I am, but quite frankly I feel I get no benefit from it and every year I have to pay a considerable annual membership fee).

    But, in saying all of the above, I often say that the test of any professional is how they conduct themselves when things go wrong. I believe in holding my hands up, taking responsibility and seeing if/how I can resolve the issue, but plenty of other people will try to cover up their mistakes or deflect blame elsewhere. From what the OP has posted the behaviour of the engineer post-submission suggests they were very much in the latter camp.

    It amazes me what my fellow 'professionals' get away with. Recently I was approached by someone who had got someone calling them an 'architect' to submit what needed to be quite a robust application (in terms of the amount of supporting reports). The client had been forwarded the automated confirmation that the application had been submitted....and 10 months later hadn't heard again from this 'architect' despite multiple emails etc.

    The client hadn't done any digging themselves so rang me up (I was recommended) and when I looked into what had happened it transpired the application hadn't been validated because lots of supporting information was missing. I asked the client if he could forward me a copy of what the 'architect' had submitted - "I don't have that, the guy didn't ever send me anything !". So putting 2 and 2 together this character had probably submitted little more than an application form (but didn't want the client to know that), pocketed the professional fees paid by the client, and then disappeared.

    But back to the OP's issue, as others have said it could be that a relatively minor change to the size/positioning of the proposed extension could make it permitted development. It's not so much the technical mistake I'd have the issue with, it's the behaviour post-submission.

    If I was the OP I'd try to work out what changes I'd need to make to the proposed extension to satisfy the technical criteria. I'd then write to the engineer setting out my unhappiness and asking what action they are willing to take. Having a complete falling put/cessation of relationship with the engineer may be more financially costly to the OP, as the OP then has to find someone else.

    If I was the engineer if this situation I'd want to make up for my error by working with the OP to design an extension that satisfies the technical criteria (assuming that extension is then still worth pursuing in terms of the benefit to the OP), and to resubmit that application without any additional charge and to pay any additional application fees out of my back pocket. But I'm not the engineer, and it may well be that, like the 'architect' character I mentioned, he's just disappeared into the sunset.

    But the OP should try to have that conversation, initially adopting a 'mistakes happen, how can we go forward ?" tone, and see how the engineer responds.
    adam.mt's avatar
    Good advice.
  2. Helpful567's avatar
    The fact that you got this person to do the work suggests that you want to get this extension done.

    It has failed the permitted development criteria.

    However, you have not gone through the planning application process for an extension which does not meet permitted development criteria.

    So, if I was in your shoes, I would apply through the normal planning permission process. This would require approval from your local planning authority and they would seek comments from neighbours.

    On a positive note, you have discovered that there have been no objections (so far) from neighbours.

    There is an interesint post about this on reddit today

    reddit.com/r/H…rue (edited)
    madridpaid_the_referee's avatar
    Author
    Hah, that was me too. Wanted to get some more opinions...
  3. adam.mt's avatar
    How much have you spent on (a) the design and (b) the submission?

    This will govern whether to pay them and 'move on' or to go into dispute over the charges. You will obviously need to pay for some of their work even if you dispute.

    Get someone else to do the design and submission. The relationship with this engineer is obviously untenable to continue.
  4. windym's avatar
    To be fair, an engineer is not someone I would be contracting to put forward a planning application, whether or not it falls within Permitted Development.
    madridpaid_the_referee's avatar
    Author
    What if they are an architect/engineer, and a member of the bodies FCABE, ACIAT.

    Regardless, should it not be his responsibility or common sense to say: Hey, I can prepare drawings for you but you need someone with specialist knowledge on planning as I cant submit to the council as I am not up to date on the criteria.
  5. JimboParrot's avatar
    I would send a formal letter of complaint to his company. When you say engineer - a surveyor or architect would normally draw up the planning application details I would have thought. Presumably he is a member of a professional body so it would be worth writing to them as well. He should have professional indemnity insurance.
    madridpaid_the_referee's avatar
    Author
    That's a good shout but I think he has he is a one man band consultancy, does not seem to be under a company.

    He was recommended to me by a builder.
  6. tardytortoise's avatar
    Have you paid the person any money? If so, would you like it back?
    Is the person likely to ask you for money? Would you be happy not to pay them this money - none of it or some of it?
  7. hubcms's avatar
    Firstly do you have anything in writing saying what he was going to do? Example a contract with you. (edited)
  8. Jay_Ma's avatar
    If you can prove the engineer owed you a duty of care in Tort, you can be compensated. (edited)
  9. Rugrats's avatar
    Regardless of what the Engineer has done, it seems like you have the right for a rear extension, but you will need to amend the proposed drawings to suit:

    "The proposal as shown on the plans, by reason of projecting beyond an original flank wall and being greater than half of the width of the original dwelling, fails to meet the criteria set out within Class A of Part 1 of Schedule 2 of the General Permitted Development Order 2015 (as amended). "

    Then re-submit your proposal to the council.
    Have you or someone has done any external work on the house before?
    You maybe able to do the extension without going to the council, but......
  10. Timbonagasaki's avatar
    This is a useful site planningportal.co.uk
    I've only briefly scanned the rules but did the engineer assume the work would come under PD rights, and did any of your neighbours get sent the letters saying what work you were intending to do?
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